America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:14 pm

There is a big difference between telling your side of the story and distorting, misrepresenting and lying about your side of the story.

Once again, I make my motion – are there any seconds?
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Dr. Evil on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:25 pm

Jammer wrote:There is a big difference between telling your side of the story and distorting, misrepresenting and lying about your side of the story.

Once again, I make my motion – are there any seconds?
?
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:01 pm

Jackoff Jones the lying liberal wrote:  Jefferson and the Republicans, which eventually turned into Democrats    
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Dr. Evil on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:12 pm

Jammer wrote:
Jackoff Jones the lying liberal wrote:  Jefferson and the Republicans, which eventually turned into Democrats    


http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h446.html
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:34 pm

When stupid liberals with an IQ under 10 copy and paste some liberal rant from a left leaning source that supports their position, they think they are being honest. Copy and paste morons like Jackoff Jones who rely on Google to find something they THINK reflects their positions are in fact clueless on the realities of life.

Jackoff Jones is a morally bankrupt piece of dogshit that has no place in a society of decent human beings.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Dr. Evil on Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:25 pm

Jammer wrote:When stupid liberals with an IQ under 10 copy and paste some liberal rant from a left leaning source that supports their position, they think they are being honest.  Copy and paste morons like Jackoff Jones who rely on Google to find something they THINK reflects their positions are in fact clueless on the realities of life.

Jackoff Jones is a morally bankrupt piece of dogshit that has no place in a society of decent human beings.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/duel/peopleevents/pande09.html


http://nypost.com/2015/08/19/if-democrats-ditch-thomas-jefferson-republicans-should-snatch-him-up/




http://www.britannica.com/topic/Democratic-Republican-Party
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Dr. Evil on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:56 am

Jammer wrote:Jackoff Jones is a?

A.  Liar
B.  Stupid
C.  The devil
D.  All of the above


Nobody should believe a word this man says.  He wants people to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a democrat, you know the same gang that Jackoff Jones belongs to.  Well WRONG.

You can trace all the history you want,  You can draw all the lines you want between the Democrat-Republican Party, the Whig Party, the democrat party and the Republican Party, but you are only fooling yourself if you try to say that Thomas Jefferson was a democrat.

Just an interesting tidbit of history is that the early Democrat-Republican party called themselves Republicans.  However, it was the Federalists who tagged them with the democratic nomenclature because they saw democracy as being a danger.

Anyhow, if you want to try to figure out what Thomas Jefferson would be if he lived in today’s world of American politics forget trying to draw lines to connect dots that don’t connect.  Take 2 buckets and label one democrat and one Republican.  Then list all of the values and principles that each political party espouses today and place them in the bucket of one of the political parties.


Once all of the values and principles are categorized remove the democrat and Republican names from the buckets.  Give the buckets to a jury along with what the Federalists and Anti-Federalists believed in back in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s and ask them to label the buckets.  You will then realize that if you were to align today’s political parties with our early Founders you would have:

Federalists (Hamilton & Adams) = democrats
Anti-Federalists (Jefferson & Madison) = Republicans

If you want to draw a line back from today’s democrat party, you will probably see that at the end of the line will be Andrew Jackson and wasn’t he something special.  He was pretty much the father of today’s democrat party even though it has become much more evil than even Jackson could have hoped for.

Mister forum moderator, I would like to make a motion that Jackoff Jones be forever banned from this forum because the answer to the question above is D.

I would say that aside from the role of government, Jefferson's philosophies still ring true with Democrats today.  What was his problem with big government?  Opression, heavy handedness, monarchy type of rule, definately not the type of "we the people" government Jefferson worked so hard to create.  Jefferson sums it all up nicely in one word: Tyranny.  It wasn't necessarily government that he hated IMO Suspect , it was the tyranny that typically went along with governments of that era that he was so opposed to.  

These are different times.  Our lack of wealth distribution and stagnant wages with rising costs, while the so called job creators enjoy record profits defines opression.  We have Wall Street traders writing computer programs to electronically trade our essential commodities like it's some sort of game,  while our government stands by and watches.  Is this the type of small government Jefferson was talking about?  I don't think so.  I was talking to a friend yesterday about the fact that our health insurance costs us $20k+ a year including premiums and deductibles.  That's more than many people make in a year, just to receive medical care.  Why? Because they can.  Is this just the insurance company?   Of course not.  Is this tyranny?  You bet it is.  

Thomas Jefferson was most certainly a we the people type of guy, and wouldn't have stood for any of this. 

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Tyranny can come in many different forms.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:33 am

     PURE LIBERAL BULLSHIT  


Whenever you hear a liberal say “these are different times” be prepared to be showered with liberal distortions, misrepresentations and outright lies.

Yes times are different today when it comes to things like technology.  We do things faster and use different tools.  However, what Thomas Jefferson and the other Founders were worried about was not technology but human nature.  The Constitution itself is structured to protect us against something that has been unchanged since the beginning of recorded history and that something is HUMAN NATURE.

Jefferson studied all of the civilizations that came before and realized that two of the greatest forces on earth were the root causes of the evil that plagued their citizens.  Those two forces were greed and a lust for power.  Since the beginning of time the poor man has wanted to be rich and the rich man has wanted to be king.  When these powers are allowed to control the government, you have tyranny.  

I don’t know if Jefferson would be a registered Republican today.  However, I do know that if we had listened to Jefferson, Madison and some of the other Founders we probably would not even have political parties today.  And finally the one thing that I am 100% positive of is that Jefferson would never ever be a registered democrat.  What the democrat party stands for today is completely in all respects counter to what Thomas Jefferson believed in.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Dr. Evil on Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:48 am

Here's a couple interesting Jefferson quotes that would imply that he believed in having an optimal government.

"It accords with our principles to acknowledge any government to be rightful which is formed by the will of the nation substantially declared."

"We are now vibrating between too much and too little government, and the pendulum will rest finally in the middle."

In Jefferson's time,  a doctor visit was a simple transaction between you and your doctor.  Today this is a national transaction.  You can't hardly even get a doctor to see you without an insurance plan, of which the vast majority are serviced in a national setting.  The scope of most anything today is far beyond that of any local government.  In some cases state governments as well.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Gomezz Adddams on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:03 pm

Dr. Jones wrote:
Gomezz Adddams wrote:
Locke had a foundational role in the Age of Enlightenment.  Revolutionary leaders like Jefferson, Franklin, and Washington were, as you well know, cut from the same cloth as Locke.  Knowing what we know about Locke, and those who followed his theology,  we know that your statement about the First Amendment protecting the states religous rights from the federal government is pure BS.  The Bill of Rights set the standard for religous freedom in America.  A standard that states quickly followed.

Actually Jefferson, Franklin and Washington weren't cut from the same cloth as Locke. For example Locke was a Calvinist much of his life but at the end he seemed to be practicing Socianism and/or Arianism. A Deist he was not.

While Locke espoused religious toleration in his philosophy, he carved out an exception for atheism. He also didn't care much for Muslims, calling them sodomites and libertines.

States don't have rights but they do have powers. "States Rights" is a misnomer. The 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Establishment Clause in the 1st Amendment originally only applied to the Federal government hence the prohibition on Congress: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Your claim that the 1st Amendment set the standard for religious freedom is just wrong. The Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution because of demands of the anti-Federalists who came whisker close to stopping the ratification of the Constitution. In fact Alexander Hamilton argued against a Bill of Rights in Federalist Paper #84: " For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

It was actually the State's Bill of Rights that influenced the Federal Bill of Rights. In particular the Virginia Declaration of Rights was the major influence for the 1st Amendment.

You fail ..... yet again.
If there's one thing for which you can be counted on, it's an entertaining bending the facts to fit your flavor-of-the-week narrative.


First off,  Alexander Hamilton was a big government, big big businesses, big bankster, Federalist.  These weren't people who gave a shiit about states' rights.  They wanted a strong federal government, so that they could support their cronie business interests.  Thomas Jefferson actually was the one who believed power resided in the hands of the states.  Hamilton and Jefferson locked heads in this constantly as they were both in Washington's cabinet, much to Washington's credit for consulting both opposing views.


Hamilton's quote,  being one of your favorites, doesn't actually mean what you think it does.  Hamilton is extremely disingenuous in his comments on the Bill of Rights, he is pretending to support the notion that it shouldn't exist because it could actually be used to place restrictions on the lives of the American people.  Federalists were big believers in loose construction, which means they wanted to be able to more freely interpret the Constitution. What he was really afraid of was that the additional verbage contained in the BoR would restrict their elasticity in being able to interpret Constitution, and the therfore restrict the ability of Federalists to bend it to fit their needs.

Reading one of your "history" posts is like watching an episode of Schoolhouse Rock. Rather than rebutting my post, you decide to climb into Alexander Hamilton's head and based purely on some weird conjecture present one of the most bizarre analysis of Federalist 84 I've ever read.  

Hamilton is being neither disingenuous nor pretending in his opposition to the Bill of Rights. Hamilton is parroting a Federalist argument that a common law canon/maxim, expressio unius est exclusio alterius ("the express mention of one thing excludes all others"), could be invoked by "men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power". This was a recurring argument in the ratification debates used both ways by the Federalists. The Federalists argued on one hand that by enumerating the powers, the new Federal government would have only the powers listed. However they also argued against the Bill of Rights by claiming that it would be dangerous to list rights since then others would be excluded. Hamilton and the Federalists were guilty of a duplicitous argument; of wanting it both both ways.

And Brutus in anti-Federalist 84 would have none of it. Brutus not only nails Hamilton on that contradiction but another as well. In his argumentation for not having a Bill of Rights Hamilton lists Rights already protected by the Constitution and then tries to argue that no rights needed to be protected by listing them in a Bill of Rights.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:33 pm

Once again a dumbass liberal opens their deceiving mouth.


"We are now vibrating between too much and too little government, and the pendulum will rest finally in the middle."

Most liberals know very little about the details of our country’s founding.  If they did, they would understand that one of the big dilemmas the Founders faced was finding a BALANCE CENTER of government.

By a balanced center of government they were looking for that perfect spot along the spectrum that ran from tyranny on one end and anarchy on the other.  Unfortunately, the Articles of Confederation did not get the balanced center correct.

TYRANNY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------ANARCHY
                                                              ^                                                     
                                                BALANCED CENTER Government   

I do not know when Jefferson spoke those words without digging into it, but I assume it was right around the time of the Constitution being drafted.  The first attempt at creating our government was the Articles of Confederation which was inadequate as it positioned the fulcrum too far to the right and did not give the federal government adequate authority to govern the new UNITED States of America.  By the way, have you noticed how dumbass liberals want to make it the UNIFIED States of America?

My next comment is from memory and not the famous Google search so often favored by some on this forum.   As I remember it, Jefferson was a very distant observer of the Constitutional Convention as he was serving in France as our Ambassador.   I seem to remember in the movie A More Perfect Union that Jefferson's only significant DIRECT contribution to the process was that he sent most of his books to James Madison who was getting ready to lead the Convention.  I seem to remember the scene of James Madison opening the box of books from Jefferson and saying something like God Bless you Mr. Jefferson.

In any event, as usual you can totally disregard the words of the lying liberal Jackoff Jones as he tries to once again misrepresent things to push his evil agenda.  If anyone is interested, there is an excellent book the “Real Thomas Jefferson” that does not contain all the distorted misrepresentations that the left is always trying to use.  The book is a tough read as over half of the book is the EXACT words of Jefferson.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/real-thomas-jefferson-andrew-m-allison/1101230285
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Darth Cheney on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:21 pm

Dr. Jones wrote:Here's a couple interesting Jefferson quotes that would imply that he believed in having an optimal government.

"It accords with our principles to acknowledge any government to be rightful which is formed by the will of the nation substantially declared."

"We are now vibrating between too much and too little government, and the pendulum will rest finally in the middle."

In Jefferson's time,  a doctor visit was a simple transaction between you and your doctor.  Today this is a national transaction.  You can't hardly even get a doctor to see you without an insurance plan, of which the vast majority are serviced in a national setting.  The scope of most anything today is far beyond that of any local government.  In some cases state governments as well.

What the hell are you talking about???? We now are blessed with Obamacare and our healthcare is fixed.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:44 pm

I just stumbled across this article written in a blog and was impressed with how it put many of these concepts together.

http://forloveofgodandcountry.com/2011/06/24/our-founding-principles-the-beginning-of-the-american-experiment/

I have never been on this blog site before, but the author of the blog seems to have done a very good job on this particular subject and probably has a lot of other good information for conservatives.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Gomezz Adddams on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:32 pm

Jammer wrote:I just stumbled across this article written in a blog and was impressed with how it put many of these concepts together.

http://forloveofgodandcountry.com/2011/06/24/our-founding-principles-the-beginning-of-the-american-experiment/

I have never been on this blog site before, but the author of the blog seems to have done a very good job on this particular subject and probably has a lot of other good information for conservatives.

I didn't read all of your site Jammer but I'd have to disagree with one his contentions.  

"The Founders read Adam Smith’s groundbreaking and insightful work “The Wealth of Nations,” which was published in 1776, and which influenced their decision to embrace and implement capitalism as a means to distribute goods and services within our nation"

Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was written as an attack on the mercantilist economic system prominent in England. Some historical economists feel that the American Revolution was fought in part because of the mercantilist policies imposed on the Colonies. In mercantilist economics colonies exist for the benefit of the mother country and were the sources of raw materials for it's factories and markets for it's manufactures. All commercial laws were written explicitly to benefit the mother country. In the American colonies think the Molasses Act, the Sugar Act and the Townsend Acts.

And yet after the Revolution the States reverted to a mercantilist system put forth by Alexander Hamilton in his "Report on Manufactures" which was embraced by the Whigs and Henry Clay. Abraham Lincoln who called himself a Henry Clay Whig made it a cornerstone of the nascent Republican Party and the tariffs imposed on imports to protect the Northern manufacturing became one of the main causes the Civil War was fought.
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Re: America's Long History of Religious Prosecution

Post  Jammer on Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:24 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
Jammer wrote:I just stumbled across this article written in a blog and was impressed with how it put many of these concepts together.

http://forloveofgodandcountry.com/2011/06/24/our-founding-principles-the-beginning-of-the-american-experiment/

I have never been on this blog site before, but the author of the blog seems to have done a very good job on this particular subject and probably has a lot of other good information for conservatives.

I didn't read all of your site Jammer but I'd have to disagree with one his contentions.  

"The Founders read Adam Smith’s groundbreaking and insightful work “The Wealth of Nations,” which was published in 1776, and which influenced their decision to embrace and implement capitalism as a means to distribute goods and services within our nation"

Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was written as an attack on the mercantilist economic system prominent in England. Some historical economists feel that the American Revolution was fought in part because of the mercantilist policies imposed on the Colonies. In mercantilist economics colonies exist for the benefit of the mother country and were the sources of raw materials for it's factories and markets for it's manufactures. All commercial laws were written explicitly to benefit the mother country. In the American colonies think the Molasses Act, the Sugar Act and the Townsend Acts.

And yet after the Revolution the States reverted to a mercantilist system put forth by Alexander Hamilton in his "Report on Manufactures" which was embraced by the Whigs and Henry Clay. Abraham Lincoln who called himself a Henry Clay Whig made it a cornerstone of the nascent Republican Party and the tariffs imposed on imports to protect the Northern manufacturing became one of the main causes the Civil War was fought.

Not my site, just one that I stumbled across.  I am not that much of a Google user, but tried to find something to answer your question.  Unfortunately nothing came up quickly and I don't have much patience with doing the Google thing.  Here is just a brief mention of Smith on the Founders.

http://www.libertarianism.org/people/adam-smith

I don't know if you are right or not, but I do know that it is at a minimum a tremendous urban legend that I always accepted and will continue to accept until I LEARN otherwise.  I have heard multiple times at different seminars and courses essentially what was written in the blog.

Without digging thru my reams of notes, I am not sure where I heard these comments.  I am pretty sure one time was at one of the Hillsdale College events that I have attended.  I am thinking about going to their Free Market Forum next October in Atlanta.  Last year it was in Omaha.  In any event, if I do there are always several real EXPERTS at those events and I will pose the question to them.

Kind of like remembering the part in the movie A More Perfect Union where Jefferson had sent many of his books to James Madison to help Madison prepare for the Constitutional Convention, I distinctly remember hearing somebody at one of these events talking about how one of the Founders had a personal relationship with Smith and knew him well.  I THINK it was Franklin.

In any event, I will continue to consider the comments in the blog article as gospel until I LEARN otherwise.  That is the first article I have ever read on that blog and I know absolute ZERO about the author.   Sorry that I can be of more help on your premise.
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