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Colorado Lawmakers Ousted in Recall Vote Over Gun Law

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Post  Freedom Forever Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:46 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/us/colorado-lawmaker-concedes-defeat-in-recall-over-gun-law.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

Libs fired in a liberal state. I hope we start seeing more dems & repubes recalled. ABOUT TIME! cheers  cheers  cheers  cheers 

Keep your filthy hands off of my rights.
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Post  Jammer Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:46 pm

Freedom Forever wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/us/colorado-lawmaker-concedes-defeat-in-recall-over-gun-law.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

Libs fired in a liberal state.  I hope we start seeing more dems & repubes recalled. ABOUT TIME!  cheers   cheers   cheers   cheers 

Keep your filthy hands off of my rights.  
While I share your joy, I actually have mixed feelings on this recall election. I am ecstatic that these democrats were thrown out of office and how it was directly tied to the lame liberal principles they follow.

However, I am disappointed that a recall election was held to do it. There is a normal recourse in a representative republic to deal with these types of legislators and it is called a general election. That is when they really should have been tossed on the scrap heap.

I am not a fan of the referendum, initiative and recall processes. I know that not all conservatives will agree with me on this issue. However, while these processes are constitutional under almost every state constitution in the country, they really are a progressive liberal strategy which is essentially "mob rule".  The progressive liberals have sold them as the "will of the people".  However, it is a progressive liberal move away from our representative republic form of government and toward a direct democracy.

Politicians should not be recalled simply because they did not legislate or govern in the manner the "mob" wanted them to. It was wrong in Wisconsin when they recalled Governor Scott Walker and the 3 state legislators because the acted in line with conservative Republican principles. That is exactly what most people would expect when you elect a Republican.

When the majority (aka mob) makes a mistake at an election, they need to work much harder at the NEXT election to fix their mistake and elect somebody that will represent them the way they would like in the REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC that our Founding Fathers gave us.

The Founding Fathers really had things figured out correctly and gave us a wonderful system of government and a Constitution to protect it.  However, the progressive liberals have never like it because it keeps them from implementing their "feel good" solution of the take to take care of their noble cause that has their attention at the moment.

In any event, I thought I would get on my soapbox and talk a little bit about conservative principles and hopefully motivate any conservatives who had not thought about this issue, to give it some thought and do a little research on it.  I am a firm believer in conservative principles and I am afraid that conservatives are actually less informed on them than they were decades ago.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Initiative_and_referendum
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Post  Gomezz Adddams Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:24 pm

The Framers of the Constitution didn't really have much to say about how the various states ran their respective governments other than that a Republican form was guaranteed to all and that all the powers not enumerated for the Federal government or prohibited to the States were reserved by the States and the People.

The recall was not uncommon in the States, in fact existing long before the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation were law. Terms in office were also very short with many State legislatures facing yearly elections.

Colorado Senators are elected to 4 year terms (South Dakota has 2 year terms) and Sen John Morse was in his 3rd year of his second term and was term limited so he would not have been standing for re-election while Sen Angela Giron was also in her 3 year of a 4 year 1st term, but was expected to run for the Congressional 3rd District in 2014.

In either case I don't believe it was mob rule rather just the citizenry being afforded the chance to reaffirm their approval of a politician who was not or might not be standing for re-election on public policy that both Senators were or should have been aware of their constituents feelings.
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Post  Jammer Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:47 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:The Framers of the Constitution didn't really have much to say about how the various states ran their respective governments other than that a Republican form was guaranteed to all and that all the powers not enumerated for the Federal government or prohibited to the States were reserved by the States and the People.

The recall was not uncommon in the States, in fact existing long before the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation were law. Terms in office were also very short with many State legislatures facing yearly elections.

Colorado Senators are elected to 4 year terms (South Dakota has 2 year terms) and Sen John Morse was in his 3rd year of his second term and was term limited so he would not have been standing for re-election while Sen Angela Giron was also in her 3 year of a 4 year 1st term, but was expected to run for the Congressional 3rd District in 2014.

In either case I don't believe it was mob rule rather just the citizenry being afforded the chance to reaffirm their approval of a politician who was not or might not be standing for re-election on public policy that both Senators were or should have been aware of their constituents feelings.
Here is a link from a well respected and solid conservative organization.  I urge you to take 5 minutes and read the information in it.  I think you will find every conservative organization that takes a position on this issue will say exactly the same thing.

http://www.nccs.net/2011-10-the-silent-dismantling-of-our-republic.php

I am personally concerned that conservatives while passionate about conservative principles and values are actually losing an understanding of them.  I have spent the last several years read, study and going to seminars and I have learned a lot that has opened my eyes.  I have been a conservative for many years but realize that I don't understand all of the details as well as I should.

So, when I learn something about conservatism that is not well known I try to share it with other conservatives.  I have the arrows in the back to prove it.  Anyhow, take a look at the information.  You may not agree with it, but it is the CONSERVATIVE principle that applies.
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Post  Freedom Forever Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:38 pm

[quote="Jammer"]
Very interesting. I learned something.
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Post  Jammer Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:29 pm

Here is another interesting article on the subject of recall elections and the initiative and referendum processes.  All 3 of these are progressive liberal tools that move our country and states away from the representative republic form of government and toward a direct democracy.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/05/01/californias-plight-confirms-the-founders-fears/

Progressive liberals have sold these changes to the voters as a better way for them to be directly involved and make government more of the will of the people.  However, it has been a systematic process for the last 100 years to dismantle our republican form of government.  Probably their single biggest blow was the 17th Amendment.  I personally believe that if the 17th Amendment had not been passed, pork barrel spending would be almost none existent.


http://www.nccs.net/products/books/repeal-17-now.php

http://www.nccs.net/2009-06-states-demand-return-to-federalism.php

Unfortunately our educational system is in control of liberals and as such none of us ever learn the real history behind our country.
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Post  Gomezz Adddams Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:45 pm

Jammer wrote:
Gomezz Adddams wrote:The Framers of the Constitution didn't really have much to say about how the various states ran their respective governments other than that a Republican form was guaranteed to all and that all the powers not enumerated for the Federal government or prohibited to the States were reserved by the States and the People.

The recall was not uncommon in the States, in fact existing long before the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation were law. Terms in office were also very short with many State legislatures facing yearly elections.

Colorado Senators are elected to 4 year terms (South Dakota has 2 year terms) and Sen John Morse was in his 3rd year of his second term and was term limited so he would not have been standing for re-election while Sen Angela Giron was also in her 3 year of a 4 year 1st term, but was expected to run for the Congressional 3rd District in 2014.

In either case I don't believe it was mob rule rather just the citizenry being afforded the chance to reaffirm their approval of a politician who was not or might not be standing for re-election on public policy that both Senators were or should have been aware of their constituents feelings.
Here is a link from a well respected and solid conservative organization.  I urge you to take 5 minutes and read the information in it.  I think you will find every conservative organization that takes a position on this issue will say exactly the same thing.

http://www.nccs.net/2011-10-the-silent-dismantling-of-our-republic.php

I am personally concerned that conservatives while passionate about conservative principles and values are actually losing an understanding of them.  I have spent the last several years read, study and going to seminars and I have learned a lot that has opened my eyes.  I have been a conservative for many years but realize that I don't understand all of the details as well as I should.

So, when I learn something about conservatism that is not well known I try to share it with other conservatives.  I have the arrows in the back to prove it.  Anyhow, take a look at the information.  You may not agree with it, but it is the CONSERVATIVE principle that applies.
While your source may be a conservative voice, it is not the only or final conservative voice on the subject. Unfortunately I find myself in disagreement over much of what is said and claimed, finding much of it's history lacking.

1) I'm not very fond of the term "Founding Fathers" especially in regards to the framing of the Constitution. Many of the Founders had no or little say in the Constitutional Convention, most notably Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, John Adams (no stranger to drafting a constitution, he being responsible for Massachusetts'), Samuel Adams and John Hancock.

2) Unfortunately your source makes the same mistake many conservatives as well as liberals make in referring to the Founders/Framers inferring that they are engaging in some group think, speaking with one voice. Hardly. The Constitutional Convention was a contentious gathering that almost came unglued numerous times. Rhode Island boycotted the entire Convention and several New York delegates stormed out of the Convention early leaving only Alexander Hamilton without a quorum and unable to vote on proposals. The various State Conventions were even more contentious with the two key states of Virginia and New York barely ratifying the Constitution.

3) While NCSS likes to invoke James Madison in it's argument against the recall, there seems to be an unawareness that the Virginia Plan, which was drafted by Madison, envisioned an elected lower house of Congress with term limits and recall.

"Resd that the members of the first branch of the National Legislature ought to be elected by the people of the several States every _______ for the term of ______ ; to be of the age of years at least, to receive liberal stipends by which they may be compensated for the devotion of their time to(1) public service; to be ineligible to any office established by a particular State, or under the authority of the United States, except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the first branch, during the term of service, and for the space of after its expiration; to be incapable of reelection for the space of after the expiration of their term of service, and to be subject to recall."

4) The arguments for/against the recall of Senators was long, brutal and nasty with many of the arguments invoking the Articles of Confederation which did allow for the recall.

4) Finally, once again the Convention did not (and politically could not) concern itself with how the States ran their respective legislatures. It simply guaranteed a Republican form of government to all the States, limited the Federal government with enumerated powers and denied a small number of powers to the States. All else was fair game for the States.

Much of the history served up in schools is thin gruel but then history is probably the worst taught subject in US education with a majority of the teachers lacking a major or even a minor in the discipline. Unfortunately most seem to come from the Planet PhyEd.
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Post  Jammer Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:48 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
Jammer wrote:
While your source may be a conservative voice, it is not the only or final conservative voice on the subject. Unfortunately I find myself in disagreement over much of what is said and claimed, finding much of it's history lacking.

I guess you didn't read the information from the Heritage Foundation as that is another reliable conservative organization that says the same thing?  I realize there are many conservative sources.  However, every reliable conservative source that tries to educate people on these areas are all in agreement with the exception of moveon.org.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/05/01/californias-plight-confirms-the-founders-fears/

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you were the final judge of what is conservative.  It is depressing to find out that I have spent the last several years studying our early history from these conservative organizations only to learn from you that they are all wrong.

I guess I must be judging these progressive liberals all wrong if their policies and strategies are so good.  Or is it ONLY their recall process that is flawed?  

I had pretty much written off every progressive liberal idea as a misguided plan.  Perhaps the 16th, 17th and 18th Amendments are not as bad as I always thought since they come from the same progressive era and mindset?   But wait, the 16th Amendment(heavy progressive income tax) is right out of the communist manifesto???  That doesn't sound good to me.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Initiative_and_referendum

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1061.html

http://www.nccs.net/products/books/repeal-17-now.php

http://www.nccs.net/2009-06-states-demand-return-to-federalism.php


I would have posted several links from Hillsdale College for you, but for some reason I couldn't get them to load tonight.  However, I am sure Hillsdale College must also be wrong.  By the way, did you know that Hillsdale College is one of the very few colleges that requires all students to pass a course on the US Constitution in order to graduate.  But that seems silly since they evidently have this stuff wrong also.  Oh well!!!
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Post  Gomezz Adddams Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:07 am

Jammer wrote:
Gomezz Adddams wrote:
Jammer wrote:
While your source may be a conservative voice, it is not the only or final conservative voice on the subject. Unfortunately I find myself in disagreement over much of what is said and claimed, finding much of it's history lacking.

I guess you didn't read the information from the Heritage Foundation as that is another reliable conservative organization that says the same thing?  I realize there are many conservative sources.  However, every reliable conservative source that tries to educate people on these areas are all in agreement with the exception of moveon.org.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/05/01/californias-plight-confirms-the-founders-fears/

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you were the final judge of what is conservative.  It is depressing to find out that I have spent the last several years studying our early history from these conservative organizations only to learn from you that they are all wrong.

I guess I must be judging these progressive liberals all wrong if their policies and strategies are so good.  Or is it ONLY their recall process that is flawed?  

I had pretty much written off every progressive liberal idea as a misguided plan.  Perhaps the 16th, 17th and 18th Amendments are not as bad as I always thought since they come from the same progressive era and mindset?   But wait, the 16th Amendment(heavy progressive income tax) is right out of the communist manifesto???  That doesn't sound good to me.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Initiative_and_referendum

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1061.html

http://www.nccs.net/products/books/repeal-17-now.php

http://www.nccs.net/2009-06-states-demand-return-to-federalism.php


I would have posted several links from Hillsdale College for you, but for some reason I couldn't get them to load tonight.  However, I am sure Hillsdale College must also be wrong.  By the way, did you know that Hillsdale College is one of the very few colleges that requires all students to pass a course on the US Constitution in order to graduate.  But that seems silly since they evidently have this stuff wrong also.  Oh well!!!
Why would you assume that I haven't read your numerous links? Because I disagree with your and their arguments? I didn't mean to disparage your sources but unfortunately most of the arguments put forth by you and your links have had very little to say about the State's power to affect recall and seem to focus mostly on the entirely different subjects of the initiative and referendum.

I commend you on your studies to learn more about our Constitution and Founding, but while I find your studies admirable, your view seems a tad myopic for such a broad field. While I certainly don't claim to be the final arbiter of what is or is not conservative, I will criticize fallacious reasoning and argumentation when it rears it's ugly head.

Bravo for Hillsdale. I've often thought about taking their free online courses but time constraints have prevented me from doing so (currently I find myself wading through 178 podcasts on the Roman Empire by Mike Duncan - free on iTunes no less). Their Core classes (of which their Constitution class is but a semester) sounds similar to The Great Books program found in Columbia's Core Curriculum and the University of Chicago's Common Core. Have you taken any of them? I can't seem to find any honest reviews of them only ad-hominem attacks on Hillsdale's pedigree.

Moving beyond our disagreements, I found this interesting article on the behind the scenes machinations of the  Colorado recalls over on the Volokh Conspiracy, a Libertarian law/lawyer site. Here's a sample:

The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms was the second most important reason why Morse and Giron were removed from office. The first reason was the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment principle of Due Process of Law. The opportunity to be heard is the fundamental to Due Process of Law, and not solely in adjudications. When Morse and Giron squelched the testimony of law-abiding citizens and of law-enforcing Sheriffs, they grossly abused their constitutional office of being law-makers. And so, for abuse of office, John Morse and Angela Giron have been recalled from office by the People of Colorado, to be replaced by legislators who will listen before the vote.
http://www.volokh.com/2013/09/11/colorado-recalls-explained/
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Post  Jammer Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:04 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
Jammer wrote:
Gomezz Adddams wrote:
While your source may be a conservative voice, it is not the only or final conservative voice on the subject. Unfortunately I find myself in disagreement over much of what is said and claimed, finding much of it's history lacking.

Why would you assume that I haven't read your numerous links? Because I disagree with your and their arguments?

Bravo for Hillsdale. I've often thought about taking their free online courses but time constraints have prevented me from doing so (currently I find myself wading through 178 podcasts on the Roman Empire by Mike Duncan - free on iTunes no less).


Moving beyond our disagreements, I found this interesting article on the behind the scenes machinations of the  Colorado recalls over on the Volokh Conspiracy, a Libertarian law/lawyer site. Here's a sample:

The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms was the second most important reason why Morse and Giron were removed from office.
[/quote]


I assumed that you had not read the Heritage link because you said:  "While your source may be a conservative voice, it is not the only or final conservative voice on the subject."  That statement seemed pretty clear to me that you had only read the ONE item.

I don't care if you agree with me or not.  I am merely trying to convey what I have learned over the last few years from these conservative organizations.  

Not all conservatives agree on every issue.  But what I do know is there are many true conservatives that do not fully understand conservative principles and values.  As a result, it is easier for the progressive liberals to continually erode our system of government.  Take a look at the National Popular Vote movement and all of the so-called Republicans that support it.

As for Hillsdale College, I am a big fan.  We are going to attend one of their summer hostel events on campus one of these years.  As for the FREE on-line courses, I encourage you to become a donor for these.  We were a large sponsor of the Constitution 101 course.  

Hillsdale is absolutely great.  However, they can make some of their material a little more college like and a little too "flowery" which will at times put me to sleep.  That is where I like the NCCS as they are more down to earth and keep things at the ground level.

There are numerous conservative organizations like the Club for Growth, Americans for Prosperity, Heritage Foundation and FreedomWorks that do a good job educating people on the conservative principles that apply to most of the current issues facing us on a daily basis.  However, when it comes to the Constitution and our system of government the choices are more limited and Hillsdale College and the NCCS are the best.

As for much of their commentary being focused on the referendum and initiative processes, yes it is.  These two processes are the "hotter" topics for several reasons.  One of these being the dramatic increase in usage of these two PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL tools.  Just take a look at SD over the past few years and now the dems are pushing to use their liberal tool to raise the minimum wage.  

Also pay attention to the number of REPUBLCIANS that are fully supportive of the initiative process.  Many times they will look to actually use it rather than the legislative session to get something passed.  That is truly sad and confirms in my mind just how poorly conservatives understand true conservative principles.

All of these liberal tools bypass the deliberative process of our representative republican form of government.  Hence they replace what should be logical and analytical reasoning along with due process deliberation with an appeal to the EMOTIONS of the "mob".  When issues are decided on EMOTION, liberals almost always win.

We are rapidly losing our representative republic with its system of checks and balances as well as our system of Federalism.  We are literally within a decade or two of having a NATIONAL government that is responsible for 95% of everything in our lives.  It will be controlled by an elitist liberal who in liberal fashion will look to hand off their control to their handpicked successor.  It will be exactly what our Founding Fathers feared, a tyrannical government and we let it happen an inch at a time.  Liberals have PROGRESSIVELY destroyed this country and shame on us conservatives for letting it happen.

As for the 2nd Amendment, I fully 100% believe in it.  However, it has no relevancy to what I was trying to communicate.
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Post  Freedom Forever Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:15 am

Ahh civil debate. cheers 
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Post  Darth Cheney Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 am

Freedom Forever wrote:Ahh  civil debate.    cheers 
Shut up bigot!!!Laughing
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Post  Freedom Forever Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:26 am

Darth Cheney wrote:
Freedom Forever wrote:Ahh  civil debate.    cheers 
Shut up bigot!!!Laughing
Akhem; It's homophobe
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