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Welfare fraud still alive an well.

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Post  Freedom Forever Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:40 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote:Played avoidance enough yet?
Here's the last post on topic (that was me defending my position/opinion):


"As a strong fiscal conservative," -
Do you know the definition of "fiscal" - look it up.

I'm not suggesting that we spend any money to find out (or prove) if it's a problem. I was suggesting a possibility to start alleviating the problem (fraud)& save us money. How would you do it?

Not sure who you are referring to here: "STOP PAYING PEOPLE TO BE WORTHLESS SLUGS" after I said: "Maybe better training? More staff? Better pay?"
Are you talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?

So you disagree with my opinion that the tax fraud is probably the most costly. OK. Just say so. No need to insult. Which do you think is?
Do you?
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Post  Gomezz Adddams Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:54 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote:
Darth Cheney wrote:Doesn't take much to fool a lib does it? Maybe they could skew the graph a little more...I am sure you noticed that huge apparent decline is made up by 600 employees.  I wonder why he had to ad 7 trillion to the debt when he cut all those government jobs.

Hey, I have some ocean front property by Murdo...you interested?


Look at the chart again Darth. That's 600,000 (600 thousand).
That chart is for all government employees. The federal number (civilian - no military included) is about 41,000.

Back on topic, you mentioned the frauds:
" - welfare, tax evasion, medicare, medicaid, public assistance fraud - "
Which of those is costing us the most, in your opinion. Any ideas how to combat that?

And yet you insinuated by use of that chart and your words that those were all Federal jobs. The proper chart to use was the one I posted and as I noted if not for the USPS imploding, the Federal jobs numbers would be showing an increase under Obama. Typical Obama, taking credit for something not of his doing.

Back OT. A true "fiscal conservative" is not one who saves money in one area and then turns around spends those "saved" dollars elsewhere like you do when you suggest spending the money you saved on detecting fraud by spending it on expanding the workforce.

Here's a radical idea for you; how about practicing due diligence and prevent the fraud from happening in the first place?
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:22 pm

No Gomezz. I simply posted the chart with no comment in that post. The chart itself clearly shows that it is all government jobs.


As I said before: "I expect that more investigators into the tax fraud (as opposed to the other frauds) would probably yield the best value for the dollar. As that money comes in, it could then be used to expand investigations into the other frauds."

By your second paragraph, perhaps you don't understand what I meant, or why I think this could have value to the taxpayer. I'll try an example:

The IRS hires 10 trained investigators to find federal tax fraud (corporate/individual/other) in just SD; @ $40,000. per year. They uncover $1million in unpaid or back taxes/penalties/interest. That's a gain of $600,000. (I do expect that could be much higher)
Then, put $200,000. in the federal coffers, and hire 10 investigators @ $40,000 per year to root out medicare fraud. They are able to save us another $1million.
Then put $600,000. in the coffers, and hire 10 investigators to work on other welfare programs. Now we have $1million in gained revenue  - - - - - and so on.
Do this nationwide. Also attach heavy fines.
After a few years, the tax/medicare/other cheaters have learned it's better to pay up front, follow the law, and avoid the penalties. Number of investigators could be cut back.
IMO, that makes good fiscal sense, and returns value for the taxpayers' dollar.
Just one suggestion. Do you have others?

You said "practicing due diligence and prevent the fraud from happening".
My idea would also have that effect of prevention.


Last edited by RedWhiteBlue on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:16 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  RedWhiteBlue Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:30 pm

Freedom:
Still "Not sure who you are referring to here: "STOP PAYING PEOPLE TO BE WORTHLESS SLUGS" after I said: "Maybe better training? More staff? Better pay?"
Are you talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?"

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Post  RedWhiteBlue Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:36 pm

Darth: You said: "Doesn't matter which is costing the most...all need to be scrutinized.  You combat it by putting those who would commit fraud to be incarcerated for a good amount of time." 

We agree that all need to be looked into. The incarcerations may serve to set an example, but are also an additional cost to the taxpayer. Not sure if that's sound fiscal policy.

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Post  Gomezz Adddams Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:58 am

RedWhiteBlue wrote:No Gomezz. I simply posted the chart with no comment in that post. The chart itself clearly shows that it is all government jobs.

Do you even read what you post? Earlier you posted "Federal government jobs have dropped considerably since Obama took office. Most of us (fiscal conservatives) see that as a positive" and you later posted your graph (w/o comment) to bolster your argument that "Federal government jobs" had dropped considerably.

As I said before: "I expect that more investigators into the tax fraud (as opposed to the other frauds) would probably yield the best value for the dollar. As that money comes in, it could then be used to expand investigations into the other frauds."

By your second paragraph, perhaps you don't understand what I meant, or why I think this could have value to the taxpayer. I'll try an example:

The IRS hires 10 trained investigators to find federal tax fraud (corporate/individual/other) in just SD; @ $40,000. per year. They uncover $1million in unpaid or back taxes/penalties/interest. That's a gain of $600,000. (I do expect that could be much higher)
Then, put $200,000. in the federal coffers, and hire 10 investigators @ $40,000 per year to root out medicare fraud. They are able to save us another $1million.
Then put $600,000. in the coffers, and hire 10 investigators to work on other welfare programs. Now we have $1million in gained revenue  - - - - - and so on.
Do this nationwide. Also attach heavy fines.
After a few years, the tax/medicare/other cheaters have learned it's better to pay up front, follow the law, and avoid the penalties. Number of investigators could be cut back.
IMO, that makes good fiscal sense, and returns value for the taxpayers' dollar.
Just one suggestion. Do you have others?

Your IRS scenario is flawed in several ways.

1)While you may increase total revenues, you seem to be operating under the delusion that somehow the savings are being tucked away in a special savings account when in effect they are being spent. Even programs with special "trust funds" (SS and Highway trust) consist of nothing more than IOU's (government bonds) and are "pay as you go" programs. Question...when you "save" $50 on a purchase do you put that $50 in your piggy bank? Probably not, and neither does the government.

2) Your scenario ignores the law of diminished returns. Just by adding additional agents you will not keep increasing your revenues by the same amount. They will diminish with each round due to fewer and fewer cheats being caught which in effect increases your costs to capture that marginal dollar. Meanwhile you've grown government in the process. This is something business is very cognizant of.  Government on the other hand ... not so much.

3) Government jobs don't decrease because the job has been accomplished or because of increased revenues. Your chart of all government jobs proves that. The state and local jobs didn't disappeared because they were no longer needed but because of the drop in local revenues or the loss of Federal stimulus funds. If anything it's proof positive of the power of the Starve the Beast philosophy of real "fiscal conservatives".


You said "practicing due diligence and prevent the fraud from happening".
My idea would also have that effect of prevention.

Probably not because taxpayers really don't trust the IRS and any trust that was there was damaged by the use of the IRS as a political tool in suppressing political opposition. I can only see the underground economy exploding in the next 4 years as more and more people fall off the grid.
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:19 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
RedWhiteBlue wrote:No Gomezz. I simply posted the chart with no comment in that post. The chart itself clearly shows that it is all government jobs.

Do you even read what you post? Earlier you posted "Federal government jobs have dropped considerably since Obama took office. Most of us (fiscal conservatives) see that as a positive" and you later posted your graph (w/o comment) to bolster your argument that "Federal government jobs" had dropped considerably.
 ***** Yup. I consider the 41,000 to be "considerable". So, you don't. No big deal.   


As I said before: "I expect that more investigators into the tax fraud (as opposed to the other frauds) would probably yield the best value for the dollar. As that money comes in, it could then be used to expand investigations into the other frauds."

By your second paragraph, perhaps you don't understand what I meant, or why I think this could have value to the taxpayer. I'll try an example:

The IRS hires 10 trained investigators to find federal tax fraud (corporate/individual/other) in just SD; @ $40,000. per year. They uncover $1million in unpaid or back taxes/penalties/interest. That's a gain of $600,000. (I do expect that could be much higher)
Then, put $200,000. in the federal coffers, and hire 10 investigators @ $40,000 per year to root out medicare fraud. They are able to save us another $1million.
Then put $600,000. in the coffers, and hire 10 investigators to work on other welfare programs. Now we have $1million in gained revenue  - - - - - and so on.
Do this nationwide. Also attach heavy fines.
After a few years, the tax/medicare/other cheaters have learned it's better to pay up front, follow the law, and avoid the penalties. Number of investigators could be cut back.
IMO, that makes good fiscal sense, and returns value for the taxpayers' dollar.
Just one suggestion. Do you have others?

Your IRS scenario is flawed in several ways.
**** lol

1)While you may increase total revenues, you seem to be operating under the delusion that somehow the savings are being tucked away in a special savings account when in effect they are being spent. Even programs with special "trust funds" (SS and Highway trust) consist of nothing more than IOU's (government bonds) and are "pay as you go" programs. Question...when you "save" $50 on a purchase do you put that $50 in your piggy bank? Probably not, and neither does the government.
****No. The IRS is the agency that brings money into the government. Shall we just ignore the fraud and let it escalate?


2) Your scenario ignores the law of diminished returns. Just by adding additional agents you will not keep increasing your revenues by the same amount. They will diminish with each round due to fewer and fewer cheats being caught which in effect increases your costs to capture that marginal dollar. Meanwhile you've grown government in the process. This is something business is very cognizant of.  Government on the other hand ... not so much.
****
See: "After a few years, the tax/medicare/other cheaters have learned it's better to pay up front, follow the law, and avoid the penalties. Number of investigators could be cut back." Revenue will still come in from those ex-cheaters.

3) Government jobs don't decrease because the job has been accomplished or because of increased revenues. Your chart of all government jobs proves that. The state and local jobs didn't disappeared because they were no longer needed but because of the drop in local revenues or the loss of Federal stimulus funds. If anything it's proof positive of the power of the Starve the Beast philosophy of real "fiscal conservatives".

****IRS jobs do. State & local agencies do not collect federal taxes.

You said "practicing due diligence and prevent the fraud from happening".
My idea would also have that effect of prevention.

Probably not because taxpayers really don't trust the IRS and any trust that was there was damaged by the use of the IRS as a political tool in suppressing political opposition. I can only see the underground economy exploding in the next 4 years as more and more people fall off the grid.
**** Lots of people don't trust local enforcement either. Doesn't mean they won't pay the consequences if they get caught.


MODERATORS - CAN YOU FIX THIS PROGRAM PROBLEM ?
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Post  pse1124 Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:48 am

RedWhiteBlue wrote:Played avoidance enough yet?
Here's the last post on topic (that was me defending my position/opinion):


"As a strong fiscal conservative," -
Do you know the definition of "fiscal" - look it up.

I'm not suggesting that we spend any money to find out (or prove) if it's a problem. I was suggesting a possibility to start alleviating the problem (fraud)& save us money. How would you do it?

Not sure who you are referring to here: "STOP PAYING PEOPLE TO BE WORTHLESS SLUGS" after I said: "Maybe better training? More staff? Better pay?"
Are you talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?

So you disagree with my opinion that the tax fraud is probably the most costly. OK. Just say so. No need to insult. Which do you think is?


It's irritating when you can't report people, and / or call your buddy mods to ban people that don't agree with you, isn't it?
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Post  Skeptical Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:05 am

I am curious what term RWB would use to describe those people living off government handouts who are mentally and pyhsically able to work and fend for themselves but because they can get more from working taxpayers for sitting on their ass..............ets they choose not to work.

FWIW, I think the term he/she/it despises, "Worthless Slugs" is a good term for such people.
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:51 am

Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion.

Do you have any suggestions on how to combat this fraud (or any of the frauds Darth listed)? Since you mentioned those not working, do you think the unemployment fraud is one of the more costly to taxpayers? As you know, I think the tax fraud costs us the most. What would you do to cut back on the unemployment fraud?

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Post  Gomezz Adddams Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:10 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote:Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion.

Do you have any suggestions on how to combat this fraud (or any of the frauds Darth listed)? Since you mentioned those not working, do you think the unemployment fraud is one of the more costly to taxpayers? As you know, I think the tax fraud costs us the most. What would you do to cut back on the unemployment fraud?

According to Nancy, unemployment benefits creates jobs. Siiigghh. If only we had 100% unemployment, we could double the economy immediately.

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Post  RedWhiteBlue Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:40 pm

Gomezz, you highlighted this line: "What would you do to cut back on the unemployment fraud?"



Do you have a suggestion to cut back on that fraud?

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Post  Skeptical Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:48 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote: Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion

I have read enough FFE's posts/comments over the years to feel confident he would call those people living off government handouts who are mentally and physically able to work and fend for themselves but because they can get more from working taxpayers for sitting on their ass..............ets they choose not to work, as WORTHLESS SLUGS.

As for unemployment fraud ... what turns your crank to deflect and bring this up when the topic is welfare fraud?

As long as those unemployed are being supported for up to 99 weeks I would put my money on the strong possibly there will be fraud instead of putting money on the possibility the program will be 100% honestly managed.  Six weeks unemployment aid should be sufficient for those really seeking work.
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:55 pm

Skeptical wrote:
RedWhiteBlue wrote: Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion

I have read enough FFE's posts/comments over the years to feel confident he would call those people living off government handouts who are mentally and physically able to work and fend for themselves but because they can get more from working taxpayers for sitting on their ass..............ets they choose not to work, as WORTHLESS SLUGS.

As for unemployment fraud ... what turns your crank to deflect and bring this up when the topic is welfare fraud?

As long as those unemployed are being supported for up to 99 weeks I would put my money on the strong possibly there will be fraud instead of putting money on the possibility the program will be 100% honestly managed.  Six weeks unemployment aid should be sufficient for those really seeking work.

The discussion did evolve to several types of fraud with Darth's comment.
Unemployment is the type of aid for those who are not working.
I'll let Freedom tell us what he meant.

Specifically, what type of welfare fraud would you like to discuss (if not those out of work - unemployment)?

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Post  pse1124 Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:23 pm

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
RedWhiteBlue wrote:Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion.

Do you have any suggestions on how to combat this fraud (or any of the frauds Darth listed)? Since you mentioned those not working, do you think the unemployment fraud is one of the more costly to taxpayers? As you know, I think the tax fraud costs us the most. What would you do to cut back on the unemployment fraud?

According to Nancy, unemployment benefits creates jobs. Siiigghh. If only we had 100% unemployment, we could double the economy immediately.



This is one of my favorite liberal ideas....I think they actually say something like for every $1.00 spent on unemplyment, the economy gets back $2.00...or something like that...lol ..You, and I , and Milton Friedman, and every other rational thought person on this board could explain where the money comes from, and why this idea is a fantasy, but they won't listen. Just like Thornton, you could bash them in the head with facts, and they will still think they are correct......Liberalism is a sickness
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Post  Darth Cheney Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:37 pm

pse1124 wrote:
Gomezz Adddams wrote:
RedWhiteBlue wrote:Skeptical, do you think Freedom was talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?
I really doesn't matter what term he uses (slugs, etc). Until he clarifies his intent/meaning (as to who he's referring to), we can't continue on that part of the discussion.

Do you have any suggestions on how to combat this fraud (or any of the frauds Darth listed)? Since you mentioned those not working, do you think the unemployment fraud is one of the more costly to taxpayers? As you know, I think the tax fraud costs us the most. What would you do to cut back on the unemployment fraud?

According to Nancy, unemployment benefits creates jobs. Siiigghh. If only we had 100% unemployment, we could double the economy immediately.




This is one of my favorite liberal ideas....I think they actually say something like for every $1.00 spent on unemplyment, the economy gets back $2.00...or something like that...lol ..You, and I , and Milton Friedman, and every other rational thought person on this board could explain where the money comes from, and why this idea is a fantasy, but they won't listen. Just like Thornton, you could bash them in the head with facts, and they will still think they are correct......Liberalism is a sickness

It actually is an incurable disease. One can recover from a sickness with medication and enough rest. Liberalism does not become cured and only continues to grow and kill useful brain cells. They are like zombies not knowing why they behave the way they do and constantly looking for new hosts to attach to.
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:16 pm

Darth, did you have any other ideas on how to cut welfare fraud? The only thing I could see, was your suggestion of incarceration. However, that is also a drain on the taxpayers.
How would you root out the cheaters?
Cutting off all payments to all recipients abruptly, will certainly lead to increased crime, and more cost to taxpayers.

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Post  Freedom Forever Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:57 pm

How about just shrink gov and have fewer people on the gov hand out system.   I know I know CRAZY!
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Freedom Forever wrote:How about just shrink gov and have fewer people on the gov hand out system.   I know I know CRAZY!

Yup. That is crazy. Cutting government jobs would then put those people on unemployment, increasing the problem. It happened to local, state and federal gov'ts a few years ago. Remember the SD state workers screaming about their lack of a COLA?

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Post  Freedom Forever Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:29 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote:
Freedom Forever wrote:How about just shrink gov and have fewer people on the gov hand out system.   I know I know CRAZY!

Yup. That is crazy. Cutting government jobs would then put those people on unemployment, increasing the problem. It happened to local, state and federal gov'ts a few years ago. Remember the SD state workers screaming about their lack of a COLA?

Then expanding gov should bring prosperity. / One dimensional lib thinker. Rolling Eyes
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Post  Gomezz Adddams Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:27 pm

RedWhiteBlue wrote:
Freedom Forever wrote:How about just shrink gov and have fewer people on the gov hand out system.   I know I know CRAZY!

Yup. That is crazy. Cutting government jobs would then put those people on unemployment, increasing the problem. It happened to local, state and federal gov'ts a few years ago. Remember the SD state workers screaming about their lack of a COLA?

Great example of the Broken Window Fallacy. Glad to see it still lives on in Lib Land.
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Post  Skeptical Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:46 pm

Freedom Forever wrote:
RedWhiteBlue wrote:
Freedom Forever wrote:How about just shrink gov and have fewer people on the gov hand out system.   I know I know CRAZY!

Yup. That is crazy. Cutting government jobs would then put those people on unemployment, increasing the problem. It happened to local, state and federal gov'ts a few years ago. Remember the SD state workers screaming about their lack of a COLA?

Then expanding gov should bring prosperity. / One dimensional lib thinker.  Rolling Eyes

Well the libs, led by that Obummer fella, have been telling us for over five years the country can spend like a drunken sailor and become prosperous.  So far we have debt of almost 17 trillion and no prosperity
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Post  Freedom Forever Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:43 am

Let's not forget the lib assertion that the more poor we have, the more crime we have. Therefore welfare prevents crime. Just look at the crime wave of the 1930's for your proof. Wait don't look.  Welfare fraud still alive an well. - Page 2 3584648792

ps there was a depression during the 30's in case anyone forgot. And no I not say there was NO crime then.
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Post  RedWhiteBlue Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:56 am

Freedom - while you are here - perhaps you missed this:

Not sure who you are referring to here: "STOP PAYING PEOPLE TO BE WORTHLESS SLUGS" after I said: "Maybe better training? More staff? Better pay?"
Are you talking about the cheaters who are committing the fraud or the gov't employees who are not catching it?

BTW - what do you suggest to cut the frauds?

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Post  RedWhiteBlue Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:07 pm

Freedom Forever wrote:Let's not forget the lib assertion that the more poor we have, the more crime we have. Therefore welfare prevents crime. Just look at the crime wave of the 1930's for your proof. Wait don't look.  Welfare fraud still alive an well. - Page 2 3584648792

ps there was a depression during the 30's in case anyone forgot. And no I not say there was NO crime then.

Good analogy. Thanks for bringing that up.
FRD's 'New Deal' in the 30's was an unprecedented relief program, gov't handouts, work programs, etc. Yes, there was still some crime, but the 'Deal' saved a lot of lives. As a bonus, look what it did for our infrastructure, too.

I think there is more abuse of those programs now. What would you do to prevent them?

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