Our Rights Do Not Come From God’

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Paquette wrote:Two Questions:

(1) If our rights come from God, which god and which version of that god do we use? Face it, even between the many Christian sects no one can agree on which is the correct vision of God's law. In order to base our laws on God's law we first have to decide which version to use.

Of course everyone thinks their version is the one and only correct faith that knows the mind of God. That's pretty much what's happening between the sunni and shiite. Do we really want to dive into even a mild, non violent version of that kind of mess? That's exactly what the establishment clause was trying to avoid. Let your faith guide your life and your vote but as soon as you try to codify your faith and impose it on others, you run afoul of the constitution.

(2) If our rights come from God, do the responsibilities that God has charged us with come with those rights? Do we codify "thou shall" as well as "thou shall not"? If we're to codify the Judeo/Christian God do we make it legally mandatory to care for "the least of these, our brothers and sisters"?

One statement:

Regardless of where we think our rights come from, it's still man that writes and enforces them. If inspired by faith, they are still little more than man's attempt to read God's mind. A simple knowledge of current events and history shows that there is a wide variety of opinions about the true nature of God's mind.

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose. It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose.  It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Skeptical wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose.  It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I keep forgetting there are a few out there believing same sex marriages/relationships is what nature prefers for continuing the species!

Dr. Jones wrote:  God should have thought of that when he made them that way.

So, which one, homosexual or heterosexual is what nature prefers since continuance of the species is involved

It looks like "nature" prefers both.

Skeptical wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:  God should have thought of that when he made them that way.

Do you really believe you have authority to advise God, let alone expect God to follow your advice?

You were the one complaining about the way he was doing things, not me..

Don't you recall the authoritative answer by RedWhiteBlue to the question

So, which one, homosexual or heterosexual is what nature prefers since continuance of the species is involved

He/she/it responded

It looks like "nature" prefers both.

Alleycat wrote:God gave Moses a code for us to live by and biblicaly the Hebrews their freedom. OUR freedom and RIGHTS here in this country came from men with Brown Bess muskets and flintlock rifles. That is the only way we will keep it.

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose.  It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Darth Cheney wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose.  It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What you are taking about is a perverted mental disorder lifestyle choice...it isn't natural or a right.

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:  God should have thought of that when he made them that way.

Do you really believe you have authority to advise God, let alone expect God to follow your advice?

You were the one complaining about the way he was doing things, not me..

Don't you recall the authoritative answer by RedWhiteBlue to the question

So, which one, homosexual or heterosexual is what nature prefers since continuance of the species is involved

He/she/it responded

It looks like "nature" prefers both.

You were the one complaining about the way he was doing things, not me..

Skeptical wrote:
So now you are an expert in linguistics?

How about providing the "modern interpretation" of the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence and your justification, expert source, for your narrative.

"to chase, set upon" (as in command sick him!), 1845, dialectal variant of seek. Used as an imperative to incite a dog to attack a person or animal; hence "cause to pursue." Related: Sicked ; sicking.

adj.

"unwell," Old English seoc "ill, diseased, feeble, weak; corrupt; sad, troubled, deeply affected," from Proto-Germanic *seukaz, of uncertain origin. The general Germanic word (cf. Old Norse sjukr, Danish syg, Old Saxon siok, Old Frisian siak, Middle Dutch siec, Dutch ziek, Old High German sioh, Gothic siuks "sick, ill"), but in German and Dutch displaced by krank "weak, slim," probably originally with a sense of "twisted, bent" (see crank (n.)).

Restricted meaning "having an inclination to vomit, affected with nausea" is from 1610s; sense of "tired or weary (of something), disgusted from satiety" is from 1590s; phrase sick and tired of is attested from 1783. Meaning "mentally twisted" in modern colloquial use is from 1955, a revival of the word in this sense from 1550s (sense of "spiritually or morally corrupt" was in Old English, which also had seocmod "infirm of mind"); sick joke is from 1958.
n.

"those who are sick," Old English seoce, from sick (adj).

Slang:
1)crazy, cool, insane

Caitlyn Piltover wrote: I'm not sure where we have the disconnect in this discussion but I can try to explain my position better once you calm down a bit.

Dr. Jones wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:

Skeptical wrote:

Darth Cheney wrote: I find it increasingly frustrating how liberals can fail to even see the simple truths in life. Man, government, and public opinion do not grant, create, or establish "rights".  They can establish laws but not rights.  Some say they are God given while others prefer to refer to them as Natural Rights.  Every human is endowed with these natural rights although many are prevented from enjoying them due to their governments.  The right to free speech, the right to protect oneself, the right to self determination. Put down your Bible fearing crap for a second and try to learn something. Half the reason this country is in serious and dire trouble is because of idiots like you that have no concept of what this nation was founded with and their intent.  It was nothing short of divine intervention that brought our founding fathers together and established the greatest nation of freedom the world has ever known. Try to educate yourself and others who think like you.

Aren't you aware same sex marriage was an idea behind the founding of this country[/size]?

This is exactly his point.  The government interferes with a person's Natural Right to love/marry whomever they choose.  It's really disturbing that you feel such an urge to mock such a basic natural right.

Aren't you aware welfare was created because of this?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What you are taking about is a perverted mental disorder lifestyle choice...it isn't natural or a right.

How could something be both a mental disorder and a lifestyle choice???

Skeptical wrote:
Do you feel better after your rant?  Perhaps anger management classes are in your future.

Again, there is no disconnect.

How about a further demonstration of "Words do not retain the same meaning over 220+ years ago" by rewriting the below example to how it should be today, with those words that have changed meaning.

"When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Caitlyn Piltover wrote:

Skeptical wrote:
Do you feel better after your rant?  Perhaps anger management classes are in your future.

Again, there is no disconnect.

How about a further demonstration of "Words do not retain the same meaning over 220+ years ago" by rewriting the below example to how it should be today, with those words that have changed meaning.

"When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

It wasn't a rant, if you wish to call it that, so be it.

That being said, we aren't even talking about the same thing right now, I was referring to the Preamble.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Skeptical wrote:
That is the preamble to the Declaration of Independence but if you prefer the preamble to the US Constitution,

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Be like an iceman and take your pick and rewrite either one or both using the modern version of those words you claim changed meanings over 220+ years.

Caitlyn Piltover wrote:

Skeptical wrote:
That is the preamble to the Declaration of Independence but if you prefer the preamble to the US Constitution,

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Be like an iceman and take your pick and rewrite either one or both using the modern version of those words you claim changed meanings over 220+ years.

Nothing to rewrite in my opinion there it speaks for itself. I can see how you don't like the domestic tranquility applying to marriage, but it does, same for the blessings of liberty. Its a nice opener and it shows that the founders were very fond of helping their fellow person out, even though many of them were super rich.

Caitlyn Piltover wrote:

Skeptical wrote:
That is the preamble to the Declaration of Independence but if you prefer the preamble to the US Constitution,

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Be like an iceman and take your pick and rewrite either one or both using the modern version of those words you claim changed meanings over 220+ years.

Nothing to rewrite in my opinion there it speaks for itself. I can see how you don't like the domestic tranquility applying to marriage, but it does, same for the blessings of liberty. Its a nice opener and it shows that the founders were very fond of helping their fellow person out, even though many of them were super rich.

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
You just can't help pulling crap out of your butthole can you? What a fricking load. The Preamble was an after thought. It was never discussed or debated at the Philadelphia Convention.  It is the sole work of one man, Gouvernor Morris, a member of the Committee of Style who wrote it at the last moment.

The phrase "domestic tranquility" in the Preamble has absolutely nothing to do with marriage. It is made in a general reference to the propensity of Americans at the time taking up arms in opposition to unpopular government measures and in particular to Shay's Rebellion which was a catalyst for the Philadelphia Convention.

Caitlyn Piltover wrote:

Gomezz Adddams wrote:
You just can't help pulling crap out of your butthole can you? What a fricking load. The Preamble was an after thought. It was never discussed or debated at the Philadelphia Convention.  It is the sole work of one man, Gouvernor Morris, a member of the Committee of Style who wrote it at the last moment.

The phrase "domestic tranquility" in the Preamble has absolutely nothing to do with marriage. It is made in a general reference to the propensity of Americans at the time taking up arms in opposition to unpopular government measures and in particular to Shay's Rebellion which was a catalyst for the Philadelphia Convention.

Sure you don't like it to mean it. I'm sorry you don't like how it applies to this country today.

Paquette wrote:Two Questions:

(1) If our rights come from God, which god and which version of that god do we use? Face it, even between the many Christian sects no one can agree on which is the correct vision of God's law. In order to base our laws on God's law we first have to decide which version to use.

Of course everyone thinks their version is the one and only correct faith that knows the mind of God. That's pretty much what's happening between the sunni and shiite. Do we really want to dive into even a mild, non violent version of that kind of mess? That's exactly what the establishment clause was trying to avoid. Let your faith guide your life and your vote but as soon as you try to codify your faith and impose it on others, you run afoul of the constitution.